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If You Can’t Write It Down… How Can You Trade It?

A great line from one of the oldest running trend followers:

“I’m very uncomfortable with black box trading where I’m dealing with algorithms I don’t understand. Everything we do we could do on the back of an envelope with a pencil.”

That “back of an envelope” remark must be a revelation for those people that imagine trading to be wildly complex. The real lesson here is the discipline to stick with rules during tough times.

Write It Down
Write It Down

How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

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Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

My Thoughts on Gaining Quick Riches from Day and Short Term Trading

Consider an excerpt from Trend Following:

When you trade more or with higher frequency, the profit that you can earn per trade decreases, whereas your transaction costs stay the same. This is not a winning strategy. Yet, traders still believe that short-term trading is less risky. Short-term trading, by definition, is not less risky, as evidenced by the catastrophic blowout of Victor Niederhoffer and Long Term Capital Management (LTCM). Do some short-term traders excel? Yes. However, think about the likes of whom you might be competing with when you are trading short term. Professional short-term traders, such as Jim Simons, have hundreds of staffers working as a team 24/7. They are playing for keeps, looking to eat your lunch in the zero-sum world. You don’t stand a chance.

Unfortunately, the flaws in day trading are often invisible to those who must know better. Sumner Redstone, CEO of Viacom, was interviewed recently and talked of constantly watching Viacom’s stock price, hour after hour, day after day. Although Redstone is a brilliant entrepreneur and has built one of the great media companies of our time, his obsession with following his company’s share price is not a good example to follow. Redstone might feel his company is undervalued, but staring at the screen will not boost his share price.

The logic is clear. However, emails still arrive:

Listener: Good morning. I am fairly knowledgeable about Trend Following as a result of reading some of your books. My current plan is to successfully and consistently day trade the e-Mini S&P, then take those profits and learn Trend Following via your course and then successfully trade that way as well. So for the past almost 6 months I have been studying, following and recording daily price action and trading the S&P futures with varying degrees of success and failure. I believe that I am poised for a major breakthrough in my trading plan. As a result of hundreds of hours of studying and recording I have noticed some correlations of overnight price activity with daily price activity, price movement that is inter-related and occurs on a regular basis. To me, these are identifiable events (patterns) on the charts that reveal the “invisible hands” that influence and drive market activity, and perhaps tip off their thinking of where they are going to move the market to. I am now able to use this information on a small scale to take profits out of the market, and continue to make excellent progress. However, I still can’t pinpoint exactly how to use this information on a larger scale to make profitable trading decisions . I have an idea of how to conduct a study to determine if indeed this realization can or cannot be used to make consistently profitable trading decisions, but am not very sure if it would be correct or the best way to conduct a study. I would like to enlist the services of an individual who is well-versed in these types of studies using statistics, probabilities, time and percentages to determine possible outcomes. For example, if I see that a certain overnight price action occurred and it was inter-related with yesterday’s activity and/or recent overnight prices in a certain way, then what are the percentages/probability that today’s activity will be X. As I said earlier, I have recorded these relationships for just shy of 6 months now and suspect there is a way to use this information to make profitable trading decisions, but I’m not quite sure. So, my question for you is can you recommend anybody who you know that has the skill set to do this type of study, and may consider helping me make this determination? Of course I understand that there would be fair compensation for this service. I have already reached out to [name] but have not received a response, so I thought this may be a better way to go. I’ve also been to the Mathematics department at Ohio State University searching for help there, but to no avail. Please let me know what your thoughts are, and thank you very much for your time and for reading this.

Covel: Just to clarify you are asking only about short term S&P trading? To be direct: I have zero leads to help you on that front. I counsel all to avoid day trading. Feel free to follow up.

Listener: Understood. Yes, I am in an S&P trade for 2-3 minutes on average, 12-15 trades per day on average. This is due to the minimal margin requirements, only $500 per contract. It is definitely a very difficult type of trading, but I am using it to be able to afford to Trend Trade. I have been blessed to be shown a system that works which I discovered through much charting and effort. I call it RcS MP for “Reversal continuation System using Magnet Prices”. There is price action that occurs regularly that is “hidden in plain sight”. For instance, look at the 1 minute chart on the left in my attachment. From 1111 to 1122 the price action is a high possibility indication that prices will go down. I drew the grey lines (ON50%- 73, etc.) on the chart at about 730AM, and 4 hours later it is telling me that there’s a good chance of prices going down. They hit the ONT2a- 70 exactly, then went down to within .75 pt to the ONT3- 66.75. Short 2 contracts from 72 to 70, short 2 contracts from 72 to 68 equals 12 pts total, $600. It happens over and over again all week long. I’m looking for help to verify whether or not certain correlations can give me a high probability of larger profits in a longer time frame. Anyway, please do not share this with anybody. I appreciate your time, thank you again.

Covel: From a past thread: Ed Seykota on short-term trading.

Other recommended Posts:

Free email Course; Elon Musk NBC, Global Opportunities; Buying you a beer; Get Rich Sucker SchemesThe belief to win big.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Ed Seykota: Greatest Quotes

A big thanks to Steve Burns for the list.

Ed Seykota wisdom:

  • “If I am bullish, I neither buy on a reaction, nor wait for strength; I am already in. I turn bullish at the instant my buy stop is hit, and stay bullish until my sell stop is hit. Being bullish and not being long is illogical.”
  • “Fundamentalists figure things out and anticipate change. Trend followers join the trend of the moment. Fundamentalists try to solve their feelings. Trend followers join their feelings and observe them evolve and dis-solve.”
  • “The feelings we accept and enjoy rarely interfere with trading.”
  • “Systems don’t need to be changed. The trick is for a trader to develop a system with which he is compatible”
  • “It can be very expensive to try to convince the markets you are right.”
  • “There are old traders and there are bold traders, but there are very few old, bold traders.”
  • “I would add that I consider myself and how I do things as a kind of system which, by definition, I always follow.”
  • “Systems trading is ultimately discretionary. The manager still has to decide how much risk to accept, which markets to play, and how aggressively to increase and decrease the trading base as a function of equity change.”
  • “Trying to trade during a losing streak is emotionally devastating. Trying to play “catch up” is lethal.”
  • “The elements of good trading are: 1, cutting losses. 2, cutting losses. And 3, cutting losses. If you can follow these three rules, you may have a chance.”
  • “Losing a position is aggravating, whereas losing your nerve is devastating.”
  • “The markets are the same now as they were five to ten years ago because they keep changing – just like they did then.”
  • “Luck plays an enormous role in trading success. Some people were lucky enough to be born smart, while others were even smarter and got born lucky.”
  • “Having a quote machine is like having a slot machine at your desk – you end up feeding it all day long. I get my price data after the close each day.”
  • “A losing trader can do little to transform himself into a winning trader. A losing trader is not going to want to transform himself. That’s the kind of thing winning traders do.”
  • “If you can’t take a small loss, sooner or later you will take the mother of all losses.”
  • “It is a happy circumstance that when nature gives us true burning desires, she also gives us the means to satisfy them. Those who want to win and lack skill can get someone with skill to help them.”
  • “Risk no more that you can afford to lose, and also risk enough so that a win is meaningful.”
  • “Dramatic and emotional trading experiences tend to be negative. Pride is a great banana peel, as are hope, fear, and greed. My biggest slip-ups occurred shortly after I got emotionally involved with positions.”
  • “Be sensitive to subtle differences between ‘intuition’ and ‘into wishing’.”
  • “The trading rules I live by are: 1. Cut losses. 2. Ride winners. 3. Keep bets small. 4. Follow the rules without question. 5. Know when to break the rules.”
  • “I usually ignore advice from other traders, especially the ones who believe they are on to a “sure thing”. The old timers, who talk about “maybe there is a chance of so and so,” are often right and early.”
  • “I set protective stops at the same time I enter a trade. I normally move these stops in to lock in a profit as the trend continues. Sometimes, I take profits when a market gets wild. This usually doesn’t get me out any better than waiting for my stops to close in, but it does cut down on the volatility of the portfolio, which helps calm my nerves. Losing a position is aggravating, whereas losing your nerve is devastating.”
  • “I intend to risk below 5 percent on a trade, allowing for poor executions.”
  • “I don’t judge success, I celebrate it. I think success has to do with finding and following one’s calling regardless of financial gain.” (On losing streaks and over-trading) “Acting out this drama could be exciting. However, it also seems terribly expensive. One alternative is to keep bets small and then to systematically keep reducing risk during equity drawdowns. That way you have a gentle financial and emotional touchdown.”
  • “In order of importance to me are: 1) the long term trend, 2) the current chart pattern, and 3) picking a good spot to buy or sell.”
  • “Win or lose, everybody gets what they want out of the market. Some people seem to like to lose, so they win by losing money.”
  • “Fundamentals that you read about are typically useless as the market has already discounted the price, and I call them “funny-mentals”. However, if you catch on early, before others believe, you might have valuable “surprise-a-mentals”.”
  • “If you can’t measure it, you probably can’t manage it… Things you measure tend to improve.”
  • “The key to long-term survival and prosperity has a lot to do with the money management techniques incorporated into the technical system.”
  • “If you want to know everything about the market, go to the beach. Push and pull your hands with the waves. Some are bigger waves, some are smaller. But if you try to push the wave out when it’s coming in, it’ll never happen. The market is always right”
  • “To avoid whipsaw losses, stop trading”
  • “Pyramiding instructions appear on dollar bills. Add smaller and smaller amounts on the way up. Keep your eye open at the top.”
  • “Markets are fundamentally volatile. No way around it. Your problem is not in the math. There is no math to get you out of having to experience uncertainty.”
  • “Our work is not so much to treat or to cure feelings, as to accept and celebrate them. This is a critical difference.”
  • “Before I enter a trade, I set stops at a point at which the chart sours.”
  • “Trading requires skill at reading the markets and at managing your own anxieties.”
  • “The positive intention of fear is risk control.”
  • “Speculate with less than 10% of your liquid net worth. Risk less than 1% of your speculative account on a trade. This tends to keep the fluctuations in the trading account small, relative to net worth. This is essential as large fluctuations can engage {emotions} and lead to feeling-justifying drama.”

Ed on my podcast too.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Trend Following Feedback

Feedback in:

Dear Michael,

First off, I would like to thank you on the excellent work you have done. You should be very proud of your efforts. The courage you have shown at times is highly impressive.

I am not a particularly good writer, but I will try to keep this concise and accurate. I have been working in the finance area for roughly ten years, but until recently I didn’t know of you. In fact, I only discovered Richard Dennis and the turtle story a few years ago. I read up on them for a bit, then as daily work took over and whatever else, I never went back to them. I then lost my job, became pretty sick, moved country…well, a lot happened. I have always been surrounded by fundamental type fund managers and analysts, who never really wanted or asked my opinion, I was just their operations or trader guy. I never had the confidence to voice my opinion. Listening to conversations with lines like ‘China mobile is cheap at twelve times earnings’ or ‘I should really tweak my estimates slightly on mediatek’. The usual blah blah, by guys who only cared about beating their peers, despite meaning that could mean their clients losing money. While I never believed it, I never really took the time to seek an alternative way. I was generally more interested in sport. Also, I never had any kind of mentor. I know these sound like lame excuses, maybe they are.

To use your words Michael, I am ‘making a commitment to change’. My motivation is one for change in my life. I have consumed a lot of your work in recent months, mostly the books and podcasts (an outstanding service). I am very interested in purchasing your training program. I am more than humble to admit, I can’t turn things around without help and sound advice. I am not seeking a Holy Grail as mentioned on your site. I want to give myself minimum one year full effort and commitment, part of a plan to turn things around. Of course, it will hopefully be one year or many more.

About the program, I am concerned that I may wander off course, so to speak. There is a lot of reading material. Can I read that over time? Can I educate myself with the systems at the same time? I worry that without checkpoints along the way, the books will gather dust. I guess that is up to me. My capital for investments at the moment is relatively modest. I also worry that I should have more questions to ask, but don’t.

Thank you for your time. I am happy to call you if you have a spare five mins, I understand you are a busy guy. Email is more than fine.

Regards,
[Name]

Sure, we can talk. I look forward to the chat.

In advance of that call listen.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Ep. 376: Overcoming Bias with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

Overcoming Bias with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio
Overcoming Bias with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

Subscribe to Trend Following Radio on iTunes

Please enjoy my monologue Overcoming Bias with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio. This episode may also include great outside guests from my archive.

In this episode of Trend Following Radio:

  • The use and misuse of statistics
  • Using skepticism to your advantage
  • The advantages of algorithmic trading
  • Leda Braga on why ‘Black Box’ isn’t a fair term
  • Daniel Dennett’s simplifications of algorithms and computing
  • Trend following as simple agnostic rules that can easily be passed to a computer
  • Efficient market theory failure during surprises

“You want to be a contrarian. You want to be on the other side of the coin. Don’t be with everyone. Stand to the side. That’s where the opportunity is…” – Michael Covel

Mentions & Resources:

Listen to this episode:

Want to learn more Trend Following? Watch my video here.

Get the foundation to making money in up, down and *surprise markets on the Trend Following mailing list.

Are You Profiting From the Market Panic?

Feedback in:

Michael,

I received a call from my dad asking if I was OK with the market panic selloff. Even though I had explained how I trade he and many others still think a drop in markets is bad for everyone. Naturally the panic selling was not the start of the down trend so I was nicely short the Dow prior to sell off.

I still can’t believe how robust this system is. Conceptually, I felt I understood it in the past but you just don’t get it until you trade it. And I am still amazed that the general market still thinks that you can only profit from stocks and commodities going up. At the same time I am profiting from that ignorance, so I am inclined to enjoy it.

Regards,
[Name]

Thanks.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Ep. 374: The Death Cross with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

The Death Cross with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio
The Death Cross with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

Subscribe to Trend Following Radio on iTunes

Please enjoy my monologue The Death Cross with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio. This episode may also include great outside guests from my archive.

In this episode of Trend Following Radio:

  • The importance of ignoring old concepts
  • Trend Following is about taking action
  • Why no one can predict where the market is headed
  • Incorporating the Death Cross into a diversified portfolio
  • Understanding momentum trading
  • The idea of “heuristics”

“Woe to the unwary trader who relies on the urban legends to inform an outlook.” – Barry Ritholtz

Mentions & Resources:

Listen to this episode:

Want to learn more Trend Following? Watch my video here.

Get the foundation to making money in up, down and *surprise markets on the Trend Following mailing list.