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Frequently Asked Questions for Trend Following #2

Michael Covel
Michael Covel

My main frequently asked questions page is here, but this is another page of questions in from readers:


Q: I read your book, “Trend Following” and I liked it very much. I started trend following before I even knew it was a thing. In the beginning of my trading experience I made a good amount of money trend following stocks but it quickly fell apart and led to huge losses. I don’t make very much money but in a few months I lost like 2k. At which point I came to the conclusion that it doesn’t work for stocks. I gave up and just use the old blue chip buy and hold. I suppose if it ever dramatically dropped I would sell but I think that’s not really trend following, it’s blue chip buy and hold and stocks seems more like a savings account than anything. It was a crushing blow that it didn’t work and basically killed my dreams. I found out about Forex through the book and started trading it a couple of weeks ago. I like it better than stocks and thought trend following might work there since it would appear that there are strong trends. However, I lose even more money in Forex. Not to be a downer but I’m not convinced that trend following works at all. But who knows maybe there is some market somewhere that trend following would for but I haven’t seen it. If I set my stops small I don’t lose much per trade but I rarely gain money and the small losses add up. If I set my stops large to get around volatility I can make money but it usually turns against me and a small gain is a huge loss in a heartbeat. Who knows maybe there is some voodoo magic involved? Have a nice day and your book was very entertaining.
A: Thanks for the feedback. Some resources for skeptics:

FAQs
Books
Computers
Flagship

Q: I am a follower of yours for several years now since back in the day I read your book Trend Following. In one of your previous podcasts you said something in those lines: that a true trend following system does not require charts or looking at charts. Every aspect of the system can be systematized. This struck me. I totally believe it right. Unfortunately, most systems these days requires looking at charts and charts patterns. So I wonder if you know some trend following systems that do not require charts? And which are they? I know that the [name] system can qualify as one. But are there others?
A: My Flagship product does not require charts. If a trend following system “requires” charts its not trend following.

Q: Thank you for sending me the 2 DVDs which I received recently. I find the interviews and information very motivating. I am interested to purchase the system, but would firstly like to have a better understanding of what will be included in the package. From a review of the Flagship vs Standard package there are various manuals and DVDs. My questions:

1. Is there a software program included in the package which can be used to assist in making trading decision?
2. If no software is included, will the manual teach me to develop the software program?
3. Since there are hundreds of pages in various manuals, are there standard Trend Trading templates for use?
4. From your students feedback, what is average time needed to develop a fully functional Trend Trading System.

Thank you for your time and appreciate receiving your response.
A: Answers:

1. All decisions are derived from rules we provide. Those rules are easily understood. A computer and or third party software helps to automate, but it’s only following the decision-making of the rules. One could of course execute those rules with pencil/paper, but automation makes life easier. We help clients with third party software options/advice, but we provide the most important part of good trend following in Flagship–the logic.
2. You will not develop software. There are many third party apps, many, that you can put rules we teach into.
3. There are base/standard rules. The pages included are mostly examples, reinforcements, lessons, psych issues, etc. Not 100s of pages of rules.
4. You will have a full trend following system once you become a client. Learning can take place in as few as 6 weeks (rough guide).

Q: I have been trading stocks for 10 years now and after reading tons of books, among Darvas and other, I came across you and your trend following. As a small investor, I have been looking at ETF’s that I can invest in. I have found the Hull tactical US ETF, but are there any more? I wanted to buy some of Dunn but his and several more once are just for institutions or for big money traders, and I’m not there yet. I have a Masters Degree in Civil Engineering and Bachelors in Economics and been working within the consulting business and energy [sectors]. But now I know that this (trend following) is what I want, so I wonder if you have any tips or contacts? Or maybe talk a bit about it in your pod!
A: I don’t directly promote trading managers, or follow all of their products, but there are many “names” across my books and podcast. Also, for those clients that want support, education and a system to trade, my Flagship offering is very popular.

Q: I would like to inquire about the trend following training program especially on the premium flagship system + training. I am only interested in currencies and I have been trading the spot forex market for about a year now, but I have never traded fx futures or fx options so far. My question is do you have training on trend following system that is only for forex trading? I have read through your web page on premium flagship training and you mentioned that currencies (fx) is one the markets covered in this training but then you also mentioned that the instruments/system used is for ETFs, leaps options and futures, then what about forex trading? I am really interested to join the trend following training program if you can have it specialize for Forex trading. By the way I have also read through the amazing Turtle Traders stories, but may I ask [if] any one of the successful turtle traders are major Forex trader[s]? I hope you can enlighten me on this issue and I look forward to your favorable reply.
A: You can use futures, leaps or ETFs to trade currencies (FX). Currency markets can be traded across those 3 markets. I don’t recommend the heavily hyped FX market alone (that is pushed by brokers online). Trade on regulated exchanges. Better. Yes, you can be a trend following trader on currencies, but why limit yourself to currencies alone? Diversification is the free lunch and you need to take it. Note: All trend followers trade currencies, FX, Forex or whatever you want to call it.

Trend Following on Stocks

One of the great myths regarding trend following is that it does not work with stocks. That is wrong thinking. Trends in stocks are no different than trends in currencies, commodities, or futures. Chesapeake Capital, Jerry Parker’s trend following firm, for example, has adapted its system to stock trading. Parker says his system works well with stocks, particularly stocks in outlier moves that are in single industries. He adds:

“Our expertise [is] in systematic trend following or model development. So maybe we trend follow with Chinese porcelain. Maybe we trend follow with gold and silver, or stock futures, or whatever the client needs. We’re trading these great systems, and testing, and making sure what we do has worked in the past. And being disciplined, and unemotional, and applying our methods to the futures markets, but limiting our trading to this one group of markets. We need to look at the investment world globally and communicate our expertise of systematic trading.”

Bruce Terry, a disciple of Richard Donchian, dismisses out of hand that trend following is not for stocks:

“Originally in the 1950s, technical models came out of studying stocks. Commodity Trading Advisors (CTA) applied these to futures. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, stocks were quiet and futures markets took off. That is how the CTA market started. It has come full circle. People are beginning to apply these models to stocks once again.”

I am reminded of the opening line from a 1979 article from “Managed Account Reports” that I found in research:

“Trading stocks and commodity futures by means of trend following techniques is an art with a long history.”

Don’t forget it.


You can read all of my FAQs here.

Frequently Asked Questions for Trend Following #1

The View on Trading Software
The View on Trading Software

My main frequently asked questions page is here, but this is another page of questions in from readers:


Q: A friend who is way more successful at trading than I, sent me a link to listen to your podcasts. I have invested more than I care to mention here, on investment training, still not showing ANY positive return. Can you help? Hope so.
A: Yes.

Q: I have totally enjoyed listening to your podcasts. When I ran across your website, (I would have liked it to have been years ago) I started listening to your podcasts. Started on the oldest and currently listening to #83 with the great Tom Basso. So I have a long ways to go. When I first started listening I thought what a great idea. I know people are available because years ago before the internet, I spent 30 minutes + on the phone with Mark Faber who was living in Hong Kong at the time. Mark was very easy to talk with and forth coming with information so I applaud you for doing what you have done and are doing. I do have a question. What are the top 3 companies offering either software or services to test various strategies? I have done all of my research by hand due to the fact that I have pretty much come up empty handed as far as a fairly inexpensive and simple to use system. If you have a podcast that covers this just let me know which one and I will listen to that first. Let me know how I can help you.
A: Start here.

Q: Thank you sincerely for sending me the DVD all the way to Germany. I am very thankful for that! I found it amazing to see that you were located in Reston, Virginia, where I was stationed as a German exchange soldier from 1995-2001 and where I graduated from [name] and got my MBA from [name] at Falls Church in Finance. My path then had me travel back to Germany and start working as a bond trader for one of the largest banks over here, which is now Italian. Today I run Credit Sales into Germany, Austria & Switzerland at the second largest [country] bank. I spent twelve hardworking years looking for the right trading approach for me and am now coming full circle back to Reston, VA and you! Thank you for your offer to join you and your firm in properly learning a fully worked out process of trend following all markets. After having spent thousands of dollars on trainings, courses, seminars, worked countless hours on day trading approaches and then spent four years investing my own funds by selling far OTM strangles until a tail risk event hit me hard this year, I came to realize that only a well diversified portfolio of trend following bets in addition to sound money management can be the right approach for me to achieve freedom from having to go to work every day in a few years. I am looking forward to working with you over the next 18-months. What do you need from me, in order to purchase the Flagship Pro Trader please Michael? Thank you again and kind regards from Germany.
A: Thanks for the great feedback. You can order here.

Q: Hello, I am seriously considering purchasing your flagship trading systems course, but I have one very important (to me) question before I do. I gave up work 12 months ago and have spent 8-10 hours per day, mostly 7 days a week, studying trading. I confirmed for myself that trend following was the most profitable, and I also confirmed for myself that all indicators are useless for anything better than 50% accuracy. I have categorically proven to myself that prediction is futile and reacting and following the market is the only real option. So everything you say and seem to teach resonates well with me. I have read your trend following book which I think is the best book I have read on trading specifically. However, I have to disagree with one very important point you voice quite strongly, and before I buy your course I would like you to explain to me the following quote from your website FAQ page: “Day trading is fool’s gold. Our training will be worth millions to you over the course of a lifetime if you simply understand that day trading is a waste of time.” What I don’t understand is that from a technical aspect (if we ignore all fundamentals as you suggest) is that all charts are identical. If I showed you a one minute chart, a 1 hour chart or a 1 week chart, without any prices (simply the individual bars or candle patterns) you would not be able to tell the difference of time scale. A 1 hour chart will have just as many noticeable and strong trends as would a daily chart. If I am trading with a % risk per trade, the pip values are proportional. If I risk 1% on a trade with a 10 pip stop loss and ride a trend for 100 pips profit on a 1 minute chart, the impact on my account equity will be identical as if I risked 1% on a trade with a 100 pip stop loss and ride the trend for 1000 pips profit on a daily chart. The real difference is I will be able to trade far more often on smaller time frames than if waiting for trends on daily or weekly charts. Obviously I understand if someone is trading $ Billions then they simply can’t trade small time frames because of liquidity issues and getting orders filled. But for people starting out with less than $100,000, it makes no sense to sit there waiting for one trade per month, risking only 1% of my account, when I could be trading daily, using the exact same entry and exit rules. Surely technical analysis by its very nature is completely independent of time? You even state yourself in your book that the instrument is irrelevant because the charts and trends are the same for all markets…we just follow the trend regardless of fundamentals or the instrument. So how does time scale make any difference? I will be able to build my account much faster with exactly the same strategy and risk management if I trade intra-day while my capital is small, and then move up and scale in to trades as and when my trade size increases to where liquidity matters for order filling. I hope this question does not come across as argumentative in any way. I just genuinely don’t understand the logic, and I always need to understand something fully before I just follow blindly or take someone else’s word as fact. If you could help me understand why your way of thinking is correct, and where my logic fails, I would be very grateful and will be ready to purchase your trading course this week. My sincere thanks for you taking the time to read this email and hopefully answer.
A: Great question! Short answer: transaction costs and slippage are killers. Longer answer? I am reposting an earlier question and answer session on the same topic:

Hi Michael, I have been reading and following your website and blog posts for the past several months. I have to say that the information you provide is rare to come across in today’s internet world. The work you’ve done over the past several years has been amazing. I just wanted to introduce myself and ask you a question on which you may be able to shine some light on. Firstly, my name is [blank]. I am currently a student at the University of Toronto in Ontario, Canada. I am in my final year of, what they say, is a prestigious finance program in one of the top universities in the Country (although the quality of information i receive daily is, in my opinion, average at best). I will be graduating in a about 2 months and am one of the few lucky students, in this economy, to have been offered a full-time position post-graduation. In May, i will be starting a job as a junior trader in a prop-trading firm located in [blank]. The firm specializes in futures trading. Although i have been interested in trading and trade on a part-time basis for the past year or so, i am fairly new to the game. The firm is mainly a day-trading firm as many prop-trading firms are. I was wondering how your concept of “Trend-Following” applies to the day trading time frame (that is minutes, hours, etc)? Does this type of strategy only work for longer time frames or has it been successful with traders who use it to day trade? Thank you once again for everything you do. Hope to hear from you soon.

Many issues from transaction costs to a need for superior access and execution are working against you. Ed Seykota once gave some insights on short-term trend trading:

Intraday trading is tough since the moves are not as big as for long-term trading and there is no comparable reduction in transaction cost. In general, short-term trading systems succumb to transaction costs and execution friction. You might simulate your system over historical data and notice how sensitive it is to assumptions about where you get your fills…The shorter the term, the smaller the move. So profit potential decreases with trading frequency. Meanwhile, transaction costs stay the same. To compensate for profit roll-off, short-term traders have to be very good guessers. To improve guessing skills, you can practice dealing cards from a standard deck, one at a time. When you become very good at it you might be able to make money with short term trading.

Seykota was also asked:

I am new to trend following and wish to ask you what your favorite chart is for determining a given market’s trend? Daily, weekly, yearly, hourly?

Seykota responded:

Hmmm…your list seems to lack scaling options for minute, second, and millisecond. If you want to go for the really high-frequency stuff, you might try trading visible light, in the range of one cycle per 10-15 seconds. Trading gamma rays, at around one cycle per 10-20 seconds, requires a lot of expensive instrumentation, whereas you can trade visible light ‘by eye.’ I don’t know of even one short-term trader, however, who claims to show a profit at these frequencies. In general, higher-frequency trading succumbs to declining profit potential against nondeclining transaction costs. You might consider trading a chart with a long enough time scale that transaction costs are a minor factor — something like a daily price chart, going back a year or two.

He is not saying short-term is impossible. There are shorter-term systematic traders who have done quite well (Toby Crabel and Jim Simons, for example). They would agree with Seykota that their style is hard. The shorter you go, the more the need for great execution, fantastic data, and multiple systems. And in closing from Jessie Livermore:

“….the big money [is] not in the individual fluctuations but in the main movements — that is, not in reading the tape, but in sizing up the entire market and its trend.”

Finally, consider an excerpt from Larry Hite taken from his Afterword for my book Trend Following:

Most of the guys that I knew who lost a lot of money actually tended to be more right than wrong. They just lost a lot on a few big losers. I believe that people put too much of a premium on being right. In some ways, it’s one of the drawbacks for people who went to the best schools and always got straight As—they are too used to always being right. It gets back to people and emotions. Everyone is happy to take lots of little winners—it makes them feel good. When their trades go against them, on the other hand, they hold on because they don’t want to accept being wrong. Many times, these trades come back and they are able to capture their small profit. To me, that kind of trading is a little bit like picking up nickels in front of a steamroller.

Thankfully, the markets don’t care about me or you or where we went to school. They don’t care if you’re short or tall. I was never very good in school and I wasn’t a good athlete either. With my background, the way I saw it, I never had any problem with the idea that I could be wrong. So, I have always built in an assumption of wrongness to anything that I do. We now kindly refer to this practice as risk management, but I just wanted to answer the question: “What’s the worst thing that could happen to me?” I never wanted to do anything that could kill me. Knowing that I was not likely to be right that often, I had to trade in a way that would make me a lot of money when I was right and not lose me a lot of money when I was wrong. If that wasn’t enough, it also had to be simple enough for me to understand.

After many years of searching and learning things the hard way, I evolved my own version of trend following. The idea made sense and I had some good examples to follow. Still, I wanted to prove to myself that it worked without betting real money. I had to test what would have happened had I traded that way in the past. These were the early days of computers and we even had to “borrow” time on university computers to test and prove our theories. It was a painstaking task, but it gave me the comfort that I needed. Now, in reading Trend Following, the do-it-yourselfers might argue that having a book that illustrates these same basic principles takes some of the fun out of it.

Actually, Covel, like any good trend follower, has not focused solely on the endpoint. He gives you a deep understanding of the most important part: the path. Unlike so many other books that have been written about investing, Trend Following goes beyond the results to explore the journey of this outstanding group of traders.

For my staff… Covel’s Trend Following is required reading. For my daughters at home, it has finally settled the question I seemed never to have been able to clearly answer myself, “Daddy, what do you do for a living?” This book captures and conveys what so many traders have taken careers and large losses to learn. And lucky for all of us, you don’t have to be Phi Beta Kappa to understand it.


You can read all of my FAQs here.

Ep. 615: Robin Hanson Interview with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

Robin Hanson
Robin Hanson

Subscribe to Trend Following Radio on iTunes

Robin Hanson is an associate professor of economics at George Mason University and a research associate at the Future of Humanity Institute of Oxford University. He is an expert on idea futures and markets, was involved in the creation of the Foresight Institute’s Foresight Exchange, and DARPA’s Future MAP project. He is co-author of “The Elephant in the Brain: Hidden Motives in Everyday Life.” And today Robin and Michael dive right into the heart of our hidden motives.

“The Elephant in the Brain” helps confront hidden motives embedded in the brain–things people don’t like to talk about, also known as, elephants in the room. Robin shows that once our brains are able to confront these blind spots, we can better have a grasp on ourselves and the motivations behind how we think–which of course can then lead to possibly better policy.

Think about it: Why does one person find another attractive? Why do we laugh? Robin answers these questions and more throughout his work. He forces you to dig into the deeper, darker parts of your psyche and look in the mirror. And Michael takes great pleasure in letting Robin reveal his awesome insights on today’s show.

In this episode of Trend Following Radio:

  • Hidden motives
  • Humans as political animals
  • Deception vs. self deception
  • Selfishness
  • Understanding your motivations

“You won’t see yourself — or the world — the same after confronting the elephant in the brain.” – Robin Hanson and Kevin Simler

Mentions & Resources:

Want a FREE Trend Following Video? Get it here.

“One of the best things I have done for understanding investing…”

Feedback:

Dear Michael Covel,

I can’t remember how I stumbled onto you podcast several years ago, but it was one of the best things I have done for understanding investing and life.

Your recent Podcast #599 – where you play an excerpt from your new book was just unbelievably fantastic. It really put together the concepts of my favorite book “The Little Book of Behavioral Finance” by James Montier of GMO into a short 30 minute capsule. (By the way James Montier would be a great guest if you could get him).

Thanks to your podcast, I can listen for 30 minutes every week to remind myself of all the behavioral biases working for and against successful trading.

Thank you very much for all your hard work.
[Name]

Thanks!

Who Is Right?

One windy day two monks were arguing about a flapping banner across the shore.

The first said, “I say the banner is moving, not the wind.”

The second said, “I say the wind is moving, not the banner.”

A third monk passed by and said, “The wind is not moving. The banner is not moving. Your minds are moving.”

More.

Note: Parable from Edward Allen Toppel. Toppel was an independent floor trader in the S&P 500 futures pit in the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. He has nearly 20 years of floor experience and has been a member of the Chicago Board Options Exchange and the Chicago Board of Trade. Prior to being a trader, he worked at Bear, Stearns & Company.

Mike Aponte: The Making of a Card Counter

Mike Aponte
Mike Aponte

Caught this great excerpt from Mike Aponte that applies to trend following and or any other life pursuit:

One of the questions I’m often asked is, “What is the most important trait in becoming a professional card counter?” The first thing that jumps to mind for most people is genius mathematical ability. True, being good at math is a plus, but the math involved in card counting is simple, middle school arithmetic. We’re not talking advanced calculus or differential equations. Having trained many people how to count cards at a professional level, there are three traits that are more important than mathematical ability. At the top, I rank high commitment level as #1.

With every person that I have trained that went on to become an accomplished card counter, it was very evident from my first interaction with them, that they were not only willing, but excited about putting in the time and energy necessary to master the knowledge and skills necessary to gain the winning edge. My most successful student to date, “Al”, is someone who barely graduated high school, getting D’s in math. During the time that I spent with AL, it became apparent that he was an underachiever when he was younger, but at the same time Al certainly was nowhere in the math league of Good Will Hunting. But what Al had going for him, was a real, serious commitment to turning his fortunes around at the blackjack tables. And to his credit he did exactly that. Many people have a get-rich-quick mentality, focusing only on the potential upside, not on what it takes to get there. No matter the endeavor, there are no shortcuts to achieving your goals.

Who is Aponte? The bio: “Mike Aponte, also known as MIT Mike, is a professional blackjack player and a former member of the MIT Blackjack Team. Aponte was part of a team of Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) students that legally won millions playing blackjack at casinos around the world by counting cards. He is the basis for one of the main characters, Jason Fisher, in the book, Bringing Down the House, by Ben Mezrich, which inspired the motion picture, 21.”

Mike was one of my earliest podcast guests. You can listen here:

I still remember where we did that interview–great Mexican restaurant on PCH right near the intersection with Newport Coast Drive. Wow what a view! Had to pull a shot from Google:

PCH View in California
PCH View in California

That is exactly how it looks.