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Where To Start in Trend Following…

Feedback in:

Hi Michael Covel, my name is [name] and I graduated from Rutgers University last year with a BA in Mathematics and Economics. I have been following your podcast and have read a couple of your books and am very interested in pursuing a career in trend following. I was always disenchanted with the investment banking paradigm, but really believe in the power of trend following. I have been following the markets for the past 5 years and have invested some of my own money during that time. What are some good ways for a guy just starting out to get his foot in the door in this industry? I believe the experience that comes with working for an experienced trend follower would be invaluable. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Read Linchpin by Seth Godin.

Read Atlas Shrugged.

Read Jack Schwager’s Market Wizard books.

Read my four books.

Listen to all podcast episodes.

Knock on doors if you want a job.

If you want to be a trend trader? Get a system and start trading.

Short list–lots of advice.

Note: Be prepared to never be hired by a trend trader. Then what? Back to my list. You can also consider other options here.


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Diversification is Key to Trend Following

Feedback:

Hey Mike, I was thinking about your recent podcast where you talked about how the sharks were posting Bill Dunn’s worst years to demonstrate the failure of trading. It reminded me of the recent articles on John Paulson. You may have read that his gold fund is doing horribly this year. Down 65%. Just like with Bill Dunn, people who don’t understand trading are just salivating over this demonstration of the “failure of trading”. The fund only represents 2% of Paulson’s funds. If this fund operates totally independently of his others funds then I might be inclined to agree with some of the criticism Mike. I can’t understand how any professional trader of Paulson’s caliber could allow his fund to lose 65% of assets. Also, I can’t understand why any professional trader could have looked at a gold chart for the past few years and decide to go long which is the only way that I can imagine that he could be down 65%. If he does incorporate counter trending strategies and was long then I don’t understand why his stops didn’t prevent such a massive loss. On the other hand Mike, if this fund does not operate totally independent, but operates as part of all of his assets, then my view would be totally different. A 2% investment of total funds under management while a bit high, is not a totally unreasonable amount for a professional to risk on a trade. Furthermore if that is the case, just think about it Mike. A 65% unrealized loss on a particular trade means you’re still in the trade. We are actually willing to risk 100% of the 1% or so that we risk on each trade. I don’t think some people realize that. If you have $100,000 trading account and you risk $1000, 65% down in that trade means you are still in the trade. The trade doesn’t end until you either get stopped at a 100% loss of the $1,000 or you take profits of 2:1 or 3:1 on that trade. Some people don’t seem to realize that about trading.

Confusion here.

65% loss on one market is not trend following! Where is the cutting of loss? Dunn’s drawdown was from taking many small losses across many markets. They add up. No one drop on one market. Plus there really can’t be a trend following fund on one market alone. That means no diversification and that is a recipe for failure.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Talking Loud and Saying Nothing

This email came in:

I am an avid listener of you podcast, I have read and seen much of your material and I have to say enjoy your controversial approach. I find it hilarious how you poke fun at the technical charting ‘fan base’, but like the many I have to say I would disagree that trend following is the only proven way. In short, I think we both agree risk management is the key to longevity whatever style you adopt, from many of the legends have been quoted that the style of trading is not the issue but finding a system which suits your personalty is critical. As 90 percent of any trade is psychological any system in the wrong hands is doomed to fail if executed emotionally even trend following. There are many famous technical traders all of which would have there profit and loss available to see from the same resources you produced when showing all the successful trend followers. I don’t think your argument towards the technicals is valid, but l do agree that trend following works and is a great trading strategy, l just think its a little naive to think its the only one. Keep up the good work, I really like your material.
Regards
James

Where is the data for the predictive technical analysis traders? Send me the decades of performance data. James Brown, and I say this with a smile, saw it:


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

No Day Trading. Please, No Day Trading

A recent dialogue on Facebook:

Shankar: Does trend following work on intra-day as well?

Covel: No. But why would one want to trade intra-day?

Shankar: Frankly I don’t know…but what I wanted to ask was does it work even on a shorter time frame i.e 5 minute charts. It should work right?

Covel: No. But why would anyone try to trade 5 minute charts? There is no system that trades 5 minute charts. None. Anyone who says that there is… is suspect.

Shankar: Any trading is for generating more profits… is it?

Covel: Day trading is not for more profits.

Shankar: Very surprising…

Covel: It is a fantasy. Find me the track records of the great day traders to match the track records of the great trend followers. Let me save you the research: they don’t exist. Why is that surprising?

Shankar: Lots of strategies have been there. I am talking about an Indian contest. Surprising because lot of people keep talking about it.

Covel: There is nothing special about Indian markets. All markets are the same. Talk about it, yes. Talk. Many people talk about doing drugs. Does their talk force you to want to take drugs too?

Shankar: No.

Covel: Trust, but verify.

Shankar: Ok.

Covel: When you can verify day trading, let me know.

Shankar: Why would trend following not work on smaller time frames?

Covel: Why should they?

Shankar: The philosophy is the same right? There are going to be trends in the shorter time frame as well.

Covel: How is it the same to trade long term trends that exceed a year or longer … and that is the same as a 5 minute bar? I talk about these issues in my books extensively.

Shankar: As long as you are running the profits and cutting the losses.

Covel: Go find the proof for the 5 minute bar trend followers. I will wait!

Shankar: Ideally if the philosophy is the same, it should work on all time frames. Hey this is just a question out of inquisitiveness. I appreciate the work you have done. And let me tell you all traders badly need to know the work you have been doing.

Covel: Ideally? Why?

Shankar: I am talking about from the trend following philosophy point of view, also, if you do the back testing on the shorter time frames, you do get good results.

Covel: You get good results, really? Find me the real proof as asked. I will wait.

More on day trading here and here.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Ep. 120: J.P. Morgan with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

J.P. Morgan with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio
J.P. Morgan with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

Please enjoy my monologue Taking, Not Trading with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio. This episode may also include great outside guests from my archive.

Listen to this episode:

Want to learn more Trend Following? Watch my video here.

The Journey of Turtle Trader Liz Cheval Took to Make Her Fortune

From Attain Capital Management:

In many ways, it can all come down to one decision- one choice in one moment that crystallizes a path in front of you. That path is rarely straight and often difficult to navigate, but once that moment has come and gone, the rest- as they say- is history. For Liz Cheval, chairwoman of the close to $150 million managed futures program EMC, that decision was the choice to respond to Richard Dennis’ famed turtle trader ad.

The story of the turtle traders [see my book The Complete TurtleTrader for more] is pretty fantastic in and of itself. Two renowned traders disagree. One says that what they do is unique, while another says that he could train anyone to trade. They make a wager on the issue, an ad is placed in the paper, and the lives of 20 students would never be the same. As the only female selected for the program, Cheval’s life was turned upside down.

After receiving a degree in mathematics from Lawrence University in Appleton, Wisconsin, Ms. Cheval was working as a trade clerk at the Chicago Board of Trade when Mr. Dennis placed his ad in the paper. At the time, women were few and far between in the famed Chicago trading pits. To hear her explain it, it was largely a function of physique.

“When I started on the floor of the CBOT in the early 1980’s… It was difficult for women to compete, given the physical demands of pit trading and the advantages of a larger, heavier frame,” she recalls.

It was on the floor that Cheval found herself drawn to Dennis’ offer. The excitement in the pits over the opportunity was palpable, as resumes were quickly refreshed and rushed to the mail. Cheval found herself being pushed to apply as well, even by those competing against her for a slot (including her employer). When called into an interview, she began to think that maybe she was missing something.

“As I approached the interview, I thought the opportunity with C&D was literally too good to be true,” she explains. “I simply couldn’t believe that a world renowned trader would teach us his methods and give us his private capital to trade. I assumed that there would be a catch, another story revealed at the interview.”

It turned out that the interview was simply the opportunity of the lifetime.

“It was not until the end of the interview, as Mr. Dennis’ top executive explained the nature and the details of the program that I began to believe it was the real deal,” Cheval recounts. “At that point, I became overwhelmed. My throat went dry. My legs were shaking. I could barely walk out of the room. If I understood the true nature of the program at the beginning, I would not have been as collected during the interview and would not have been selected. ”

Being selected may have been the easy part. After the interview began a rigorous amount of training, and the competition was fierce.

“The group was extremely competitive. The dynamic was open, above-board and collegial, but no doubt, everybody wanted to win,” Cheval states.

Even as the only woman in the group, Cheval found herself seamlessly blending into the adrenaline fueled atmosphere. The experience, by and large, was a positive one. She was able to earn the respect of her peers, and believes that working in a group of professional, competitive men helped prime her for professional challenges in the future.

When the training was done, it was time to hit the pavement running. The turtles were hungry to spread their wings and test their mettle. Cheval remembers making phone calls upon completion of the program, trying to gauge the level of interest for outside investors. That former employer who had encouraged her to apply? He became EMC’s first client, investing $1 million.

While it certainly has not been a bed of roses, Cheval has done very well for herself. EMC , which she runs with former turtle Brian Proctor, now has $148.75 million in assets under management, and is as well respected in the industry as you can get, in our opinion. She credits the nuanced strategies involved in managed futures with keeping her in the game. Even with this success, Cheval knows that you need to keep pushing to make it in this industry.

“The ability to adapt to change is the key to long term success in trading. It’s relatively easy to develop a profitable trading strategy over a short time frame. It’s far more challenging to develop a reliable method to continually adapt the strategy to future market conditions,” Cheval states.

Adaptation is especially important in an environment like what is seen today. Managed futures seems to be perpetually under attack by mainstream media pundits and financial advisors, with the bulk of comment being directed toward “greedy speculators.” This misconception, paired with investor frustration over a divergent return stream and increasing government intervention in the markets, can complicate the managed futures conversation, but Cheval is up to the task. In her mind, the theory of the game makes the challenge all the more worthwhile.

Her experience in the industry has granted her a great deal of perspective, and she’s more than willing to share it. The secret to becoming a successful CTA? She’s not keeping mum.

“You need both a successful trading strategy and, more importantly, a reliable method to adapt the strategy to future market conditions. A successful trading strategy requires robust systems and sound risk management principles. The trading strategy is only as good as your research process. You have to identify robust estimators and develop a process to continually adapt the systems based on these reliable estimators,” Cheval says. “You have to be disciplined in executing both trading and research strategies, in good periods and bad. A CTA has to be committed to their strategy whether it is in or out of favor.”

And for all you women out there thinking about entering the field?

“Over the years I encouraged women to manage money because I believed it to be a gender neutral occupation. No one can dispute your contribution based on gender in investment management. Your performance is there in black and white in the P&L report,” states Cheval.

“Go for it. Today the physical advantage of men [in the trading pits] is inconsequential because trading is virtually 100% electronic. I give the same advice to both men and women seeking entry level jobs in managed futures. Technical skills are mandatory. Great thinkers and idea creators need technical applications to test and execute trading strategies. Having those skills is a great way to gain entry or to build your own business.”

However, in our conversations with Cheval, it was her comments on the future of the industry that resonated with us most.

“Money centers will shift, performance will change, but overall, global markets are large and expansive,” she quipped. “Markets and managers will adapt.”

We couldn’t agree more.

Unfortunately, Liz Cheval recently passed away, but her success lives on.

Related Podcasts and Articles:

Trend Following Forward by Charles Faulkner

Lobster Logic

Interview with Brennan Dunn

Learning Trading Mechanics

Trend Follower Cliff Asness


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Practice, Patience and Perseverance

Trend Following is a lifestyle. It is a way of thinking, acting and doing. It does take determination, however. It isn’t easy to make money from the markets, just as it isn’t easy to become an Olympic athlete. Think of all the factors about yourself that would need to be altered if you were to train for the Olympics. Your diet, fitness routine, coaches, psychology and so much more would have to be worked on tirelessly to make it to the top. Your whole lifestyle and way of being would need shift. You would have to put the time in.

Now lets put that into trend following terms. You cant expect to read only a book (even though mine are a great first step), with no work on your end, and magically make millions in the markets. If it were that easy everyone would be making the big money. It takes practice, patience and perseverance. You can memorize algorithms or imagine the “perfect” system all you want, but until you master your psyche you will never reach your full potential. This is why Charles Faulkner (listen) has been on my podcast three times and is easily one of the most popular guests.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.