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Interview with Dan Ariely: The Upside Of Irrationality

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Michael, I heard on the podcast you are visiting my adopted city of Beijing where I have lived for the past 8 years. If you need anything while there, places to go eat, see, my friend has great Israeli restaurant there etc. Whatever you need let me know. My local China mobile number is below. We are out of town so can not meet but can help. Glad you enjoy Asia. I moved there from Wall Street about 8 years ago. Life never been the same ever since. Also, you will love this interview. Full link below. Best of luck with CLSA.

Miguel: Continuing from this definition of decision making you write about the Lancelot story where he’s a fighter and claims that the key to fighting well is not worrying about the outcome but rather focusing on having perfect concentration (minimal stress). How can you relate this story to decision making?

Dan: What is interesting about this story is that by not valuing his life Lancelot became much more rational in a standard way. Basically, the way we think about it is that emotion makes people irrational. Not bad necessarily, but irrational, and if you can disassociate yourself from your emotions you can make more rational decisions. That is exactly what Lancelot was able to do-So during a sword-fight where you want to fight to the best of your ability you don’t want any stress, and to do so you don’t want to think about anything besides the immediate fight. By detaching yourself from emotions you are able to do that.

Thanks for the nice words and words of wisdom!


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The Fundamentalist Trucker

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Hey there Mike. Today’s market moves (The collapse of Gold in particular) reminded me of a disagreement I recently had with a truck driver I happened to cross paths with. We ended up discussing the markets and he mentioned that he happened to recently come into a ton of money. He starts telling me all the reasons why the metals is the place to go. I never revealed to him that I have experience as a trader and I happen to watch many many markets on a daily basis. I knew that what he was saying was nonsense because I knew by heart the approximate price of Gold and that it was in a steady downtrend. When I explained this to him, he rudely corrected me and told me that actually Silver is the place to put your money. I then informed him that Silver and Gold are highly correlated markets and that the two move almost in tandem. When Gold goes down, Silver usually goes with it. He then rudely corrected me again, adding in that “he has actually had schooling on these matters” thinking that that would shut me up because he “knows what he’s talking about”. I then told him that if he has had financially schooling then he should well know that the two markets are highly correlated and that any school that teaches fundamental investing will teach you that the long term [buy and hold] track record for the metals is horrific. I then told him that if I were to pull up a chart of Silver and another of Gold and put them side by side covering the names and prices, I bet he couldn’t even tell me which was which because they look nearly identical. Anyway Mike I just wanted to share that story with you to illustrate the difference between the fundamentalist mentality and mentality of traders and even aspiring traders. The fundamentalist trucker is still thinking about the meteoric rise in the metals in the past and is now riding it into the dirt. Traders on the other hand already made our money on the rise, and now we are all short and trying to determine whether we should cover on today’s break or move our stop down and lock in some profits or add to our current positions. When will the fundamentalists learn Mike?

Thanks! They won’t learn. Guaranteed.


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Don’t Offend Day Trading!

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Hi Mike, Just listened to your last podcast. Thanks for doing the podcasts while you are on the road! Trading is a solitary activity, I have not found any other trend following traders locally. I find people just want to discuss fundamentals and sentiment and predictions. No good for the business of non-discretionary trading. So I find listening to your interviews balances that, almost like having access to mentors. I’m always looking forward to the next interview. The monologue episodes are sometimes puzzling however, particularly your negative comments aimed at various groups. This time it was daytraders. I am not a daytrader and don’t want to be, its not my style, but I do know people who earn good profits daytrading. But why should you or I care if they have their eyes glued to the screen, its their own choice and it doesn’t effect us. I’m assuming your long term aim is marketing your stuff (an honorable objective, all credit to you for that), but is talking down to potential customers really effective? Also something confused me with your logic today, you make the assumption that any historic data correlated with trend following, must therefore also be derived from trend following. But could daytrading profits also be correlated? eg. Oct 2008 trend following was profitable, but surely daytraders would also be short as markets were consistently directional downwards, so they would also be profitable from the high volatility. My logic might be wrong, let me know. By the way I’m a big fan of your books, and recommend them at every opportunity. Most of my foundation concepts came from reading “Trend Following” about 3 years ago, but I also liked “Trend Commandments” for clarifying the whole TF mentality.

Regards,
Mike B.

In my books are performance track records of trend following traders. Audits. Where are the day trading records like that? My passion is to take what I know and pass it along. Clearly, I am not the only one who shares that day trading view. You are aware of Ed Seykota? Why would potential customers be offended by my comments? Confused. Also, clarify your point about correlations? Not following that logic.

Hi Mike, Thanks for your reply. Why could they be offended? “They have personal issues they try to resolve by daytrading…” Did you mean that in a complimentary way? But I don’t disagree with your Ed Seykota quote about daytraders. My point about marketing is that getting a negative gut reaction from potential customers doesn’t usually result in them reaching for their wallets. Its not offensive to me, I’m not in that group. Personally I prefer to only make decisions once a day, and play more golf! This is how I see the relationship between trend following and daytrading. I view all market activity (all time frames) as driven by two character types, either momentum/TF or reversion-to-mean (RTM). The RTM guys include value investors, most analysts, and most media commentators. Any healthy market needs both TFs and RTMs, but each individual person can’t be both. In sideways markets you can’t tell the difference, but when prices are moving into new territory thats when the two types polarize. When price is making new highs/lows TFs want to be in the trend direction, and RTMs want to be opposite, and the trend stops only when RTMs overwhelm the TFs. But those same two drivers come into play when medium-term traders look at a daily chart, or when daytraders look at a 5-min chart. A daytrader can have a TF style (buying new highs, etc). The difference is the speed, the intensity, and higher probability of being knocked out by market noise. Anyway, you’ve been doing this much longer than me, I could be wrong. So thanks for letting me voice an opinion. Enjoy the rest of the weekend!

Cheers,
Mike
Calgary, Alberta

Thanks Mike for the thoughtful note, but let me be even more stark:

1. Day trading track records don’t appear to exist.
2. If a strategy is faulty, or doesn’t work, or there is no proof, why would you keep hoping for it to work or imagining it to work? Yes, that would lead to Ed Seykota’s conclusion about “issues” that they need to work on.


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Day Trading Podcast Feedback

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Michael, Hope you are enjoying your journey. I really enjoy the great guests you have on your podcasts. Let me provide some constructive feedback.

1.) You could enhance your podcast by listening to a master interviewer like [name] who really gets the most out of his guest with well prepared and carefully thought out questions.

2.) Given diversified trend trading systems have similar performance it adds value to run many different types of systems with non-correlated returns. Sharing your research on what does not work would be more constructive than your current comments about day trading systems. A great place to start researching other systems is attain and striker which provide hundreds of systems with both backtested and actual track records since go-live. It would be great material for another book to focus on summarizing the 100 most popular trading systems across all strategies with a correlation matrix between them.

3.) It would also be great to have a futures broker as a guest to get their perspective about the pros and cons about having the system executed exactly as specified. If you are aware of another program that has this please pass it along.

4.) Your material is geared toward validating one approach which a good start for the novice. However for those already doing this it would add value to discuss complementary systems/approaches with system developers.

Thanks,
Steven

Thanks for the feedback on interviewee questions. Agreed improvement always possible!

As for other issues:

1. Brokers don’t do much for me. That is for someone else.
2. My recent day trading criticism originated with trend trader Ed Seykota. It was spot on.
3. If my business was all hard core systems types–there would be no business.

As for other complimentary systems what do you mean exactly?

Long Term Capital Management; Never Goes Out of Style!

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Hi Michael, I am a trend-follower from Norway (the cold country in Europe!), for about 5 years. I just wanted to thank you for all the great information and books you are writing/providing. I have been trading the markets for about 10 years, but the first 5 years with losses. After the first 5 yrs, I sat down and did a great job of analyzing my mistakes, and with Amazon’s help, I found books that led me in the right direction (Starting with Reminiscences of a Stock Operator). I recommend this video [see video below] about LTCM. Very interesting. (related to risk management and black swan events). Thanks again.
Best regards,
Niels

Thanks! If you have not watched it–watch now.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

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Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Feedback from a Reader Relating to the Trend Commandments

A comment came into my blog recently first quoting an excerpt from my book Trend Commandments:

“Global Macro or Systematic Global Macro: Global macro is another term used to describe trend following traders, but indirectly. They do not say managed futures, and they do not say hedge fund, so it is global macro. It might make wealthy investors in Liechtenstein and Saudi Arabia feel more secure. The strategy is still trend following”

That was my writing. The commenter after sourcing that offered this with a return email of [email protected]:

This is absolutely misleading. Global macro is NOT trend following. I am sure you would be thrilled to put trend following traders in the same league as Tudor, Brevan Howard, Moore and Soros, but you’re making a fool of yourself in the eyes of those who know their stuff. I shall refrain from arguing any further, but I would invite your readers to conduct a quick google search to identify the distinction since it should be obvious.

I saw “The Net Effect of Mischief Makers” in The Straits Times recently:

In the beginning, the technology gods created the Internet and saw that it was good. Here, at last, was a public sphere with unlimited potential for reasoned debate and the thoughtful exchange of ideas, an enlightening conversational bridge across the many geographic, social, cultural, ideological and economic boundaries that ordinarily separate us in life, a way to pay bills without a stamp.

Then someone invented “reader comments” and paradise was lost.

The Web, it should be said, is still a marvellous place for public debate. But when it comes to reading and understanding news stories online – like this one, for example – the medium can have a surprisingly potent effect on the message. Comments from some readers, our research shows, can significantly distort what other readers think was reported in the first place.

But here, it’s not the content of the comments that matters. It’s the tone.

In a study published online in The Journal of Computer-Mediated Communication last month, we and three colleagues report on an experiment designed to measure what one might call “the nasty effect”.

We asked 1,183 participants to carefully read a news post on a fictitious blog, explaining the potential risks and benefits of a new technology product called nanosilver. These infinitesimal silver particles, tinier than 100-billionths of a metre in any dimension, have several potential benefits (like antibacterial properties) and risks (like water contamination), the online article reported.

Then we had participants read comments on the post, supposedly from other readers, and respond to questions regarding the article’s content.

Half of our sample was exposed to civil reader comments and the other half to rude ones – though the actual content, length and intensity of the comments, which varied from being supportive of the new technology to being wary of the risks, were consistent across both groups. The only difference was that the rude ones contained epithets or curse words, as in: “If you don’t see the benefits of using nanotechnology in these kinds of products, you’re an idiot” and “You’re stupid if you’re not thinking of the risks for the fish and other plants and animals in water tainted with silver.”

The results were both surprising and disturbing. Uncivil comments not only polarised readers, but they often changed a participant’s interpretation of the news story itself.

In the civil group, those who initially did or did not support the technology – whom we identified with preliminary survey questions – continued to feel the same way after reading the comments. Those exposed to rude comments, however, ended up with a much more polarised understanding of the risks connected with the technology.

Simply including an ad hominem attack in a reader comment was enough to make study participants think the downside of the reported technology was greater than they’d previously thought.

While it’s hard to quantify the distortional effects of such online nastiness, it’s bound to be quite substantial, particularly – and perhaps ironically – in the area of science news.

About 60 per cent of the Americans seeking information about specific scientific matters say the Internet is their primary source of information – ranking it higher than any other news source.

Our emerging online media landscape has created a new public forum without the traditional social norms and self-regulation that typically govern our in-person exchanges – and that medium, increasingly, shapes both what we know and what we think we know.

One possible approach to moderate the nasty effect, of course, is to shut down online reader comments altogether, as some media organisations and bloggers have done. Mr. Paul Krugman’s blog post on this newspaper’s website on the 10th anniversary of Sept 11, for instance, simply ended with “I’m not going to allow comments on this post, for obvious reasons.”

Other media outlets have devised rules to promote civility or have actively moderated reader comments.

But, as they say, the genie is out of the bottle. Reader interaction is part of what makes the Web the Web – and, for that matter, Facebook, Twitter and every other social media platform what they are. This phenomenon will only gain momentum as we move deeper into a world of smart TVs and mobile devices where any type of content is immediately embedded in a constant stream of social context and commentary.

It’s possible that the social norms in this brave new domain will change once more – with users shunning mean-spirited attacks from posters hiding behind pseudonyms and cultivating civil debate instead.

Until then, beware the nasty effect.

Yes, the world has become nasty. Trolls abound.

However, to the writer’s point? Interestingly I sat down with a former employee of one of the very firms he mentioned. This meeting in Singapore had that former employee joking to me that all they did was trend following. To paraphrase Ed Seykota: everyone gets what they want in the markets and life. If people want to be angry and ignorant of reality–they can easily achieve their objective.

Related Trend Following Topics

Interview with Alison Gopnik

Investing in Sterling during Brexit Negotiations

Barbara Fredrickson Podcast

Why Trend Following is Powerful Information

Interview with Dave Huss


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

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Performance
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About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Are You Throwing Your Children Under The Bus?

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Hi Michael,

Just listened to your podcast on the universal kick-in-the-ass known as the death of the McJob. I couldn’t agree more. What people do not realize, however, is that through osmosis we pass our attitudes on to our children. If we are afraid to get out from under the weight of societal expectation to be another drone zombie with the rest of them, what message does that give to our children? A child looks up to its parents for guidance and reassurance. We see it during, say, a thunder storm, where our children are nervous and instinctively glance over at us to see if WE are afraid. Well what if we are and we show it? What do we communicate to our children if we show our fear? The obvious answer is that they then become afraid because they rely on the parent to show them the things they should be afraid of.

So when a parent does not follow your message, does not get out there and make something happen, and instead retreats into the illusory safety of corporate zombi-ism, they have let down their child in a way that goes far beyond not giving them the latest toy or a ride to the mall. They have basically told them that there is safety to be had by huddling in a collapsing building. So if people won’t take your words to heart for themselves, then they should at least do it for their children.

By the way, Mike, I’m writing this from my hotel room overlooking The Bund in Shanghai. I’m here visiting my daughter who graduated last year as a top-notch high school student and winner of a couple significant citizenship awards. She has read all your books and has the Trend Following mentality. Last summer she made the decision to head to China to learn Mandarin and to see more of the world before going to university. And in case everyone thinks that what you’re saying is all about money, she is volunteering for a charity that helps Chinese kids make a difference in their world because she herself wants to make a difference. Because of her can-do attitude, the money is already there; it’s a given, because once you are there mentally, the results are inevitable. She has had no trouble accumulating the money she needs to achieve her goals, but she’s taking this year to go beyond the money, and as you probably guessed, I couldn’t be more proud of her. She not only thinks it, she does it.

Thanks Michael, keep up the message!

Dale

Thanks Dale. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

If you want to live a life of complacency, a life that is run by what the masses are telling you to do, then that is your choice. Just know that your children will be subject to the same kind of ruling over their lives. Don’t lead them to believe that “there is safety to be had by huddling in a collapsing building”.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.