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Ep. 390: Jim Simons Analysis with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

Jim Simons
Jim Simons

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Please enjoy my monologue Jim Simons Excerpt with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio. This episode may also include great outside guests from my archive.

In this episode of Trend Following Radio:

  • Christopher Hitchens on certainty v. uncertainty
  • Jim Simons on Trend Following
  • Faith v. Skepticism
  • Is trend following dead?
  • Buying pleasure: a complete fallacy
  • Constraints on the truth

“But in looking at the data, after a while I realized: it looks like there’s some structure here. And I hired a few mathematicians, and we started making some models–just the kind of thing we did back at IDA [Institute for Defense Analyses]. You design an algorithm, you test it out on a computer. Does it work? Doesn’t it work? And so on.” – Jim Simons

Mentions & Resources:

Listen to this episode:

Want to learn more Trend Following? Watch my video here.

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Overpopulation: A Trend Following Debate

When asked about trend following becoming “overpopulated” a Richard Dennis quote is often best:

“I don’t think trading strategies are as vulnerable to not working if people know about them, as most traders believe. If what you are doing is right, it will work even if people have a general idea about it. I always say you could publish rules in a newspaper and no one would follow them. The key is consistency and discipline.”

Psychology and following the rules are paramount–bottom line. Consider more from an excerpt from The Complete Turtle Trader:

The techniques that Dennis and Eckhardt taught the Turtles were different from Dennis’s seasonal spread techniques from his early floor days. The Turtles were trained to be trend-following traders. In a nutshell, that meant that they needed a “trend” to make money. Trend followers always wait for a market to move; then they follow it. Capturing the majority of a trend, up or down, for profit is the goal.

The Turtles were trained this way because by 1983, Dennis knew the things that worked best were “rules”: “The majority of the other things that didn’t work were judgments. It seemed that the better part of the whole thing was rules. You can’t wake up in the morning and say, ‘I want to have an intuition about a market.’ You’re going to have way too many judgments.”

While Dennis knew exactly where the sweet spot was for making big money, he often fumbled his own trading with too many discretionary judgments. Looking back, he blamed his pit experience, saying, “People trading in the pit are very bad systems traders generally. They learn different things. They react to the [price] ‘tick’ in your face.”

Feedback from a listener that addresses Richard Dennis:

Hi Michael,

Hope you are doing well. Again, I appreciate everything, specially your commitment to the trend following podcast. In a recent back to back [other podcast] between [name] and [name] they address an important question:

Q: What lessons do you take from the fall of Richard Dennis? One of the biggest swingers at the Board of Trade…great trader…not only that but he believed he could replicate trading skills and did so successfully. He trained a whole generation of people who came up [and] manged billions…and then he basically goes and explodes. What is the practical lesson for your audience here?

A: Speaking to the trend following school in particular (and various trend followers who blew up or bled out): I do believe that certain trading styles and methodologies can suffer greatly from overpopularity. When there are too many people following a widespread strategy, and not enough differentiation among that active group, the strategy can be degraded to the point of no longer working.

Personally, I don´t agree with that argument because market trends have been persistent over time. As Howard Marks said: “We don´t have to worry about everybody becoming to prudent or to wise, because we are talking about human nature.”

I would appreciate your insight on this argument.

Peace,
[Name]

I don’t see any argument. My views on this are answered across 2 books comprehensively (the question above has some inaccuracies for starters):

1: The Complete TurtleTrader
2: Trend Following

My best response is in about 180,000 combined words (that is not a dodge; reality is that my answer is long). And yes I talk about the good and bad of Richard Dennis, but the good far outweighed the bad.


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Life as a Continuum Running on Loop Back and Forth from Risk to Reward

Life is a series of bets. Decisions on top of decisions. Choosing a trading strategy is one of those decisions to bet on. Consider an excerpt from Trend Commandments:

You want to see life as a continuum running on a loop back and forth from risk to reward. If you want a big reward, take a big risk. If you want an average reward and an average life, take an average risk. Easier said than done, however, if you want the big reward. Our system is notorious for playing Whac-A-Mole with achievers. From an early age, people are conditioned by families, schools, and virtually every other shaping force in society to avoid risk. To take risks is inadvisable; to play it safe is the message. Risk can only be bad. However, winners understand risk is highly productive, and not something to avoid. Taking calculated risks is different from acting rashly. Playing it safe is the true danger. Far more often than you might realize, the real risk in life turns out to be the refusal to take a risk. If life is a game of risk, then to one degree or another, being comfortable with assessing odds is the only option for a fulfilling life. Consider trading from a “startup” business perspective. Every business is ultimately involved in assessing risk. Putting capital to work to make it grow is the goal. In that sense, all business is the same. The right decisions lead to success, and wrong ones lead to insolvency.

Blunt, but true.

Now, feedback from a listener that made the right bet:

Trend following has indeed changed my life. After a 20-year career on Wall Street I am now a successful, profitable, independent trader. Have I made money with trend following? Yes, indeed. Living a nice life in Chicago with three kids going to private school, enjoying the finer things. My strategy is not difficult to execute at all. Very basic and straight forward. I keep it as simple as possible. I will absolutely continue to execute this strategy. Mind you–always looking at new information and ideas.

Thanks!


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
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About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

My Thoughts on Gaining Quick Riches from Day and Short Term Trading

Consider an excerpt from Trend Following:

When you trade more or with higher frequency, the profit that you can earn per trade decreases, whereas your transaction costs stay the same. This is not a winning strategy. Yet, traders still believe that short-term trading is less risky. Short-term trading, by definition, is not less risky, as evidenced by the catastrophic blowout of Victor Niederhoffer and Long Term Capital Management (LTCM). Do some short-term traders excel? Yes. However, think about the likes of whom you might be competing with when you are trading short term. Professional short-term traders, such as Jim Simons, have hundreds of staffers working as a team 24/7. They are playing for keeps, looking to eat your lunch in the zero-sum world. You don’t stand a chance.

Unfortunately, the flaws in day trading are often invisible to those who must know better. Sumner Redstone, CEO of Viacom, was interviewed recently and talked of constantly watching Viacom’s stock price, hour after hour, day after day. Although Redstone is a brilliant entrepreneur and has built one of the great media companies of our time, his obsession with following his company’s share price is not a good example to follow. Redstone might feel his company is undervalued, but staring at the screen will not boost his share price.

The logic is clear. However, emails still arrive:

Listener: Good morning. I am fairly knowledgeable about Trend Following as a result of reading some of your books. My current plan is to successfully and consistently day trade the e-Mini S&P, then take those profits and learn Trend Following via your course and then successfully trade that way as well. So for the past almost 6 months I have been studying, following and recording daily price action and trading the S&P futures with varying degrees of success and failure. I believe that I am poised for a major breakthrough in my trading plan. As a result of hundreds of hours of studying and recording I have noticed some correlations of overnight price activity with daily price activity, price movement that is inter-related and occurs on a regular basis. To me, these are identifiable events (patterns) on the charts that reveal the “invisible hands” that influence and drive market activity, and perhaps tip off their thinking of where they are going to move the market to. I am now able to use this information on a small scale to take profits out of the market, and continue to make excellent progress. However, I still can’t pinpoint exactly how to use this information on a larger scale to make profitable trading decisions . I have an idea of how to conduct a study to determine if indeed this realization can or cannot be used to make consistently profitable trading decisions, but am not very sure if it would be correct or the best way to conduct a study. I would like to enlist the services of an individual who is well-versed in these types of studies using statistics, probabilities, time and percentages to determine possible outcomes. For example, if I see that a certain overnight price action occurred and it was inter-related with yesterday’s activity and/or recent overnight prices in a certain way, then what are the percentages/probability that today’s activity will be X. As I said earlier, I have recorded these relationships for just shy of 6 months now and suspect there is a way to use this information to make profitable trading decisions, but I’m not quite sure. So, my question for you is can you recommend anybody who you know that has the skill set to do this type of study, and may consider helping me make this determination? Of course I understand that there would be fair compensation for this service. I have already reached out to [name] but have not received a response, so I thought this may be a better way to go. I’ve also been to the Mathematics department at Ohio State University searching for help there, but to no avail. Please let me know what your thoughts are, and thank you very much for your time and for reading this.

Covel: Just to clarify you are asking only about short term S&P trading? To be direct: I have zero leads to help you on that front. I counsel all to avoid day trading. Feel free to follow up.

Listener: Understood. Yes, I am in an S&P trade for 2-3 minutes on average, 12-15 trades per day on average. This is due to the minimal margin requirements, only $500 per contract. It is definitely a very difficult type of trading, but I am using it to be able to afford to Trend Trade. I have been blessed to be shown a system that works which I discovered through much charting and effort. I call it RcS MP for “Reversal continuation System using Magnet Prices”. There is price action that occurs regularly that is “hidden in plain sight”. For instance, look at the 1 minute chart on the left in my attachment. From 1111 to 1122 the price action is a high possibility indication that prices will go down. I drew the grey lines (ON50%- 73, etc.) on the chart at about 730AM, and 4 hours later it is telling me that there’s a good chance of prices going down. They hit the ONT2a- 70 exactly, then went down to within .75 pt to the ONT3- 66.75. Short 2 contracts from 72 to 70, short 2 contracts from 72 to 68 equals 12 pts total, $600. It happens over and over again all week long. I’m looking for help to verify whether or not certain correlations can give me a high probability of larger profits in a longer time frame. Anyway, please do not share this with anybody. I appreciate your time, thank you again.

Covel: From a past thread: Ed Seykota on short-term trading.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
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Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Ep. 388: Logic Over Faith with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

Logic Over Faith with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio
Logic Over Faith with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio

Subscribe to Trend Following Radio on iTunes

Please enjoy my monologue Logic Over Faith with Michael Covel on Trend Following Radio. This episode may also include great outside guests from my archive.

In this episode of Trend Following Radio:

  • Logic over faith
  • Financial advisors: there to give mutual fund advice
  • Adapting your strategy
  • How quitting can keep you in the game
  • Forcing yourself to make decisions
  • Risk and reward

“What I say is, at what price? If low interest rates were just that simple of a panacea, we would never have recessions. We would never have these crises, we would never have these panics.” – Carl Icahn

Mentions & Resources:

Listen to this episode:

Want to learn more Trend Following? Watch my video here.

Get the foundation to making money in up, down and *surprise markets on the Trend Following mailing list.

Fundamentals and The Death Cross: Confusion Always

Need a refresher about the fundamental mindset? From Trend Following:

There are two basic theories that are used to trade in the markets. The first theory is fundamental analysis. It is the study of external factors that affect the supply and demand of a particular market. Fundamental analysis uses factors such as weather, government policy, domestic and foreign political and economic events, price-earnings ratios, and balance sheets to make buy and sell decisions. By monitoring “fundamentals” for a particular market, one can supposedly predict a change in market direction before that change has been reflected in the price of the market with the belief that you can then make money from that knowledge. The vast majority of Wall Street uses fundamental analysis alone. They are the academics, brokers, and analysts who spoke highly of the new economy during the dot-com craze. These same Wall Street players brought millions of players into the real estate and credit bubbles of 2008. Millions bought into their rosy fundamental projections and rode bubbles straight up with no clue how to exit when those bubbles finally burst. Consider an exchange between a questioner and then President Bush at a press conference:

Q: “I wanted to ask you [Mr. President], I’m a financial advisor here in Fredericksburg [Virginia], and I wanted to ask you what your thoughts are on the market going forward… and if any of your policies would make any difference?”

The President: “No (laughter), I’m not going to answer your question. If I were an investor, I would be looking at the basic fundamentals of the economy. Early on in my Presidency, somebody asked me about the stock market, and I thought I was a financial genius, and it was a mistake (laughter). The fundamentals of this nation are strong. One of the interesting developments has been the role of exports in overall GDP growth. When you open up markets for goods and services, and we’re treated fairly, we can compete just about with anybody, anywhere. And exports have been an integral part, at least of the 3rd quarter growth. But far be it for me—I apologize—for not being in the position to answer your question. But I don’t think you want your President opining on whether the Dow Jones is going to—(laughter)—be going up or down.”

Now, consider a recent email exchange with a Trend Following Radio listener that expands out in a better direction:

Listener: Honestly, my entire career has changed because of your podcast now that I think about it b/c it was my first exposure to trend following. A couple years ago I listened to your podcast for the first time and didn’t like it, too closed minded. Then I listened again… and again. My mind gradually continued to open and expand.

Covel: Thanks for the nice words.

Listener: Great interview with Campbell Harvey. Definitely have him on again sometime. Hearing about your trip to China was also great as we are in the middle of working on an opportunity over there.

Concluding:

Listener: I agree with your comments on your death cross podcast that Cliff’s tweets seemed a bit odd… But then again, I don’t understand what he is talking about with at least half of his tweets. It indeed is a bit hard for people to understand that trend following is different than predictive technical analysis. I cringe when people ask me “so what are your indicators telling you”. You’ve done a good job at attempting to articulate it. Keep it up. I’m no different than you, I just looked at the data when I came across trend following. Then when I started adding it to a traditional portfolio and found a couple good managers like Chesapeake and [name] it was a no brainer. I guess for some that’s not enough. That’s fine with me.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.

Ed Seykota: Greatest Quotes

A big thanks to Steve Burns for the list.

Ed Seykota wisdom:

  • “If I am bullish, I neither buy on a reaction, nor wait for strength; I am already in. I turn bullish at the instant my buy stop is hit, and stay bullish until my sell stop is hit. Being bullish and not being long is illogical.”
  • “Fundamentalists figure things out and anticipate change. Trend followers join the trend of the moment. Fundamentalists try to solve their feelings. Trend followers join their feelings and observe them evolve and dis-solve.”
  • “The feelings we accept and enjoy rarely interfere with trading.”
  • “Systems don’t need to be changed. The trick is for a trader to develop a system with which he is compatible”
  • “It can be very expensive to try to convince the markets you are right.”
  • “There are old traders and there are bold traders, but there are very few old, bold traders.”
  • “I would add that I consider myself and how I do things as a kind of system which, by definition, I always follow.”
  • “Systems trading is ultimately discretionary. The manager still has to decide how much risk to accept, which markets to play, and how aggressively to increase and decrease the trading base as a function of equity change.”
  • “Trying to trade during a losing streak is emotionally devastating. Trying to play “catch up” is lethal.”
  • “The elements of good trading are: 1, cutting losses. 2, cutting losses. And 3, cutting losses. If you can follow these three rules, you may have a chance.”
  • “Losing a position is aggravating, whereas losing your nerve is devastating.”
  • “The markets are the same now as they were five to ten years ago because they keep changing – just like they did then.”
  • “Luck plays an enormous role in trading success. Some people were lucky enough to be born smart, while others were even smarter and got born lucky.”
  • “Having a quote machine is like having a slot machine at your desk – you end up feeding it all day long. I get my price data after the close each day.”
  • “A losing trader can do little to transform himself into a winning trader. A losing trader is not going to want to transform himself. That’s the kind of thing winning traders do.”
  • “If you can’t take a small loss, sooner or later you will take the mother of all losses.”
  • “It is a happy circumstance that when nature gives us true burning desires, she also gives us the means to satisfy them. Those who want to win and lack skill can get someone with skill to help them.”
  • “Risk no more that you can afford to lose, and also risk enough so that a win is meaningful.”
  • “Dramatic and emotional trading experiences tend to be negative. Pride is a great banana peel, as are hope, fear, and greed. My biggest slip-ups occurred shortly after I got emotionally involved with positions.”
  • “Be sensitive to subtle differences between ‘intuition’ and ‘into wishing’.”
  • “The trading rules I live by are: 1. Cut losses. 2. Ride winners. 3. Keep bets small. 4. Follow the rules without question. 5. Know when to break the rules.”
  • “I usually ignore advice from other traders, especially the ones who believe they are on to a “sure thing”. The old timers, who talk about “maybe there is a chance of so and so,” are often right and early.”
  • “I set protective stops at the same time I enter a trade. I normally move these stops in to lock in a profit as the trend continues. Sometimes, I take profits when a market gets wild. This usually doesn’t get me out any better than waiting for my stops to close in, but it does cut down on the volatility of the portfolio, which helps calm my nerves. Losing a position is aggravating, whereas losing your nerve is devastating.”
  • “I intend to risk below 5 percent on a trade, allowing for poor executions.”
  • “I don’t judge success, I celebrate it. I think success has to do with finding and following one’s calling regardless of financial gain.” (On losing streaks and over-trading) “Acting out this drama could be exciting. However, it also seems terribly expensive. One alternative is to keep bets small and then to systematically keep reducing risk during equity drawdowns. That way you have a gentle financial and emotional touchdown.”
  • “In order of importance to me are: 1) the long term trend, 2) the current chart pattern, and 3) picking a good spot to buy or sell.”
  • “Win or lose, everybody gets what they want out of the market. Some people seem to like to lose, so they win by losing money.”
  • “Fundamentals that you read about are typically useless as the market has already discounted the price, and I call them “funny-mentals”. However, if you catch on early, before others believe, you might have valuable “surprise-a-mentals”.”
  • “If you can’t measure it, you probably can’t manage it… Things you measure tend to improve.”
  • “The key to long-term survival and prosperity has a lot to do with the money management techniques incorporated into the technical system.”
  • “If you want to know everything about the market, go to the beach. Push and pull your hands with the waves. Some are bigger waves, some are smaller. But if you try to push the wave out when it’s coming in, it’ll never happen. The market is always right”
  • “To avoid whipsaw losses, stop trading”
  • “Pyramiding instructions appear on dollar bills. Add smaller and smaller amounts on the way up. Keep your eye open at the top.”
  • “Markets are fundamentally volatile. No way around it. Your problem is not in the math. There is no math to get you out of having to experience uncertainty.”
  • “Our work is not so much to treat or to cure feelings, as to accept and celebrate them. This is a critical difference.”
  • “Before I enter a trade, I set stops at a point at which the chart sours.”
  • “Trading requires skill at reading the markets and at managing your own anxieties.”
  • “The positive intention of fear is risk control.”
  • “Speculate with less than 10% of your liquid net worth. Risk less than 1% of your speculative account on a trade. This tends to keep the fluctuations in the trading account small, relative to net worth. This is essential as large fluctuations can engage {emotions} and lead to feeling-justifying drama.”

Ed on my podcast too.


How can you move forward immediately to Trend Following profits? My books and my Flagship Course and Systems are trusted options by clients in 70+ countries.

Also jump in:

Trend Following Podcast Guests
Frequently Asked Questions
Performance
Research
Markets to Trade
Crisis Times
Trading Technology
About Us

Trend Following is for beginners, students and pros in all countries. This is not day trading 5-minute bars, prediction or analyzing fundamentals–it’s Trend Following.